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Copywriting and Crime

Hello, Meg; welcome; welcome.

Hello, thank you for having me.

 I'm super excited to dive in and chat with you. I was already recording your intro earlier. And I was like, We've got copywriting and coffee and true prime, which caught my cool. There are all sorts of goodies here.

I love it. I'm in for all of it.

 Awesome. So tell me, how did you get into writing? Have you always liked to write? Or is that something that you found a passion for later in life? I feel like when the guests we have on the podcast are introduced, there seems to be this distinct group of people who knew right off the bat. This was like their thing forever and ever. Or there are these people who have these, like, midlife shifts and find these new passions.

Okay, so for me, I am definitely going to the first party. It's been always for ever and ever.

 Yeah. 

Writing as an Inner Passion

Actually, about a year or two ago, I found a journal from when I was seven. And I had written in there like I was the nerd that totally kept a journal. But I had written in there that when I grow up, I want to listen to old people tell me their stories, and I want to turn them into books. Like that, I knew that. I knew that I wanted to be a ghostwriter when I was seven; it just took me, you know, 30 years to come back to that. Eventually. Yeah, so writing has always been my jam. I've always been writing, even when I was working in the corporate world for someone else doing a million other things for 20+ years. Writing was always on the sidelines. As someone who loves to write, I feel like I wrote for so long in school that, when I totaled it up recently, I was in school for like, well over 20 years. By the time I did, you know, an elementary school, high school, and university and got an MBA and whatnot, And I feel like it almost stole the joy out of the writing. Because it was always the reading and the writing, I always loved to read and write, but then, you know, it became like a chore, especially toward the end of my MBA dissertation, and I felt like it might kill me. And so you know what I feel like now because now that I've been done with school for a while, I feel like I'm starting to find the joy in it again. Oh, that makes me so excited. That's a common thing that I hear, especially with people who are starting their own business and getting back into something that they love, whether its something they've known and loved forever or they're just discovering this passion, getting to write about something that they really, really love and are excited about. And it's not a task. It's not an assigned book report on The Joy Luck Club. It's something that lights their fire and turns them on so that they start to get excited about writing again. It makes me so happy. I love that.

So you always knew you wanted to write. Did you know, like, you spent some time in corporate, then, obviously? So how did you make that shift away from corporate and into writing more full-time?

Setting Goals

So while I was working for corporations, I still had a few freelancing gigs. I wrote for a local newspaper and I wrote for some entertainment magazines and publications; I just found a few different options to keep my fingers busy with the writing. Honestly, I had been in the corporate world for a little over 20 years. And it had gotten to the point where the stress and anxiety from doing something and trying to force me to do something I felt like I should be doing to contribute to society and whatnot had become too much. It caused me to drink a lot and do a lot of things that are not meant to be done in large quantities. And honestly, I had some people to call to come to Jesus. I had this realization that I needed to make a change; I either needed to find a way to love what I was doing in the corporate world and just deal with it, or to do what I did love. And so I set a goal for myself—honestly, it was probably in a drunken stupor—I set this goal where I was like. I give myself one year to figure out either what I want to do with my life or how to deal with what I'm doing right now. And I realized that if I wanted to make a living writing, I needed to write for people that had money, which I was like, Okay, that means I need to write for business owners because they have money to spend on writing. So I'll be a copywriter. And so I created my business and set up a website in the course of a couple of weeks, and 363 days later, I gave notice to my boss and left the corporate world because it was like I had to make this one-year goal. I did the thing and started copywriting, and it was a blast. But I also knew right away that copywriting wasn't the format for me because I needed a little more fluff. I needed the storytelling aspect of it. And so I knew that, at least in the next five years, I wanted to be ghostwriting; I wanted to be helping people write books, and the universe heard me, and she was like, I see you, cool, and she plopped two ghostwriting opportunities in my lap after about five months in business. And I was like, Well, I know if I tell the universe, I'm not ready. Likely, she will not come back around. So  

All right, let's see, what's the worst that can happen? Honestly, that's all she wrote. I didn't take on any more copywriting clients. After that, I finished up the contracts that I had. And since then, it's now been about three years of ghostwriting and coaching others on their writing, and I love what I do every day.

So walk me through the ghostwriting process. I know that I've always been super curious about what that looks like. I have had, you know, different people reach out in the last couple of years who have said, like, Hey, you should be writing a book and whatnot. And I was like, Yeah, I would love to write about them. They're like, Yeah, I'm going to write it for you. I was like, No, I want to write it. So what is that process? What is that process? Like? I mean, I enjoy writing. So for me, that was something I was like, I wonder what that would be like, you know, and I personally had already said, No, I wasn't getting any more details at that point. So walk me through what that process is. Like?

Ghostwriting is not Plagiarism

I love that. And I totally get that it's because people are, like you said, in two parties. There are the people who are like, I want a book, and I'm going to write it. And then there are the people like me who want a book. So those are the people who do ghost readings for you. It's fine. One of the biggest questions I get asked is, Isn't it illegal? And I'm like, No, no, no, ghostwriting is not plagiarism. It is not stealing someone's work. It is a creative contract and agreement between two parties that says, You have a story that you want to tell, but you either don't want to sit down and write it or you don't know how to do it. Or you just don't care; you have better things to do with your time. And you're hiring someone to help you. That's what ghostwriting is; it is legal.

My number one thing that prevents me from writing a story is, you know, and I've seen a couple of different people mention it in different ways, as you know, as guests on the podcast, but you know, the vulnerability hangover. And so I wrote as part of a group book, kind of like Chicken Soup for the Soul, where each person had their own chapter. And I did that just as I was leaving corporate. And I was like, Oh, I've always wanted to be in a book. Oh, actually, as I said, I always wanted to write a book. And so I was like, Oh, one chapter, and it was kind of like the, it was going to go live just kind of just after I left corporate, and I still think this is kind of fun and whatnot. I remember the first meeting, and I, of course, had some ideas and stuff. And then we met with the editor, at that first meeting. And she was like, Okay, so you're going to write about this? And I was like, Oh, I don't want to. And I, you know, it was really right, as I was leaving corporate. And so she, of course, wanted me to talk about that decision and whatnot. And I think I would just write it so differently. Now. It was so new. I was also from corporate and incorporated America.We didn't say, you know, like, it was like, everything's fine. Life is good; everything's fine. Everything is fine. And so now that Ive been in the online space, and, like, I've done my podcast, you know, there's been that focus on more authentic content. And so you ended up sharing way more about it? And so, like, I look at it, and I'm like, Oh, I totally would do it differently now. But of course, thats kind of what it was. And so there's definitely been some growth in that time.

I guess that's what people see it as—the double-edged sword. It's like, okay, but once I put it out there, like a book, it's forever. It's not an Instagram post, or it can be like, Oh, I don't like it. My chin looks like I'm going to delete it, like, a book is there; it is there. It's happening. 

 Well, my grandma, of course, was like, She bought it like the day it came out. And so she had it in her hands before anybody else. And so she was like, Well, I read it. She was like, You're sharing a lot. Oh, gosh. I was like, if I was nervous before, I'm 100 times more nervous.

That's actually one thing that a lot of

But now looking back, you know, at that moment, I just felt so panicky about sharing that side. But you know, it's interesting because its how you connect with people, and one of my best clients, who I've now worked with for, like, a year and a half, is someone with whom I've worked so closely in her business that, you know, we get to know each other and share the life and the journey. See how that affects each person's business and what they bring from life and to their business. It's so important to be able to take your story or whatever and actually bring it to life—not like air or dirty laundry—but in a way that just says, This is me, and this is how I do business because this is me. And so I've been able to convey that in words, which I think is truly a gift, whether it's in a story, like in ghostwriting or copy, of being able to share the story in a way that helps persuade people to understand.

Start Where You Are 

Oh, definitely. Well, and also, I think it's shifting that to seeing it as Yes, it's a vulnerability. But that's so empowering. Because we so often think, Okay, I'm doing it wrong, or I didn't do that as perfectly as I could. And what we need to realize is that there are a million other people who are behind where we are right now. And I don't mean behind, like delayed, but they haven't taken the steps that I've taken or that you've taken. And so, yes, we showed up vulnerable and said, like, Okay, I did it. I wrote my first book after I had emergency back surgery while on pain pills and living in a recliner chair in our living room. It was messy. It was not a good look. But I was very open and vulnerable about that, and I shared that because I wanted people to know that, like, you don't have to have a perfect office setup. And you don't have to be perfectly coiffed and have an amazing grasp of the English language. I mean, start where you are with what you have. And tomorrow, you'll be able to look back and say, Wow, okay, I wish I had done it a little differently. But at least I did it.

Oh, well, because, you know, when I started, it was funny. I remember someone saying, You know, imperfect action beats perfection. And I was like, Now, no, no, no, you know, and this whole thing is better than perfect. And all of these things that, when I started my journey of entrepreneurship, I was like, Yeah, I don't subscribe to any of this. None of it But you do get to the point where you're like, Okay, so I still am a person who does enjoy perfection. And this whole thing, like anti-perfection culture, is not still something I subscribe to. However, I do see that, like, you can wait, you can hold off, you can decide not to move ahead with something like business, whatever it is, because you're just like, I don't know yet. I don't know yet. And opportunities flow on by, whether it's hiring someone, acquiring a different part of a business, letting someone go, or, you know, there are all these decisions within the business that sometimes you have to be decisive and trust yourself enough to make a decision and just go for it, whether it's perfect or not. Sometimes you just have to go; there is no option to just wait.

Yes, honestly, probably, if I were to nail down the biggest thing that I have done that has changed the trajectory of my business—the starting of additional businesses—you know where I am now, it has been in the last year that I have leaned into trusting my higher self. And for some people, that's their gut instinct. It's whatever you want to call it—a higher power, your God, the universe—and I kind of see it as all of the above, you know, all of the above, but just trusting that, like, I do know best for myself, and I may not have the right answer, but at this point, right now, today, I'm going to make the best decision that I can. And I guess at the end of the day, as long as I make the right decisions, nobody's life is on the line. It's a matter of maybe posting a blog that doesn't land. Okay. Did anyone die? No, I mean, I really hope nobody did. But, like, did anyone die? No. Did it cause a horrible accident? Did it change the course of someone's life? No, I did something that was human. It wasn't perfect. And tomorrow, I could do it better. And just really getting out of my own way. And knowing that my higher self knows some sh*t, She's a smart girl. And I need to listen to her.

It's interesting how we start to have this shift at one point or another where we do start to trust ourselves more. I mean, I am 100% analytical data-focused, like the numbers tell the story, yadda, yadda, yadda. And when I left corporate, it was an honor. It's my time; I have to go. And I remember like talking to my husband about it or attempting to talk to him about it for a long time, and he just was like, Oh, yeah, yeah, well, you know, and I'm going, I'm like, Okay, so I'm doing this. And he's like, You're doing what? It's like, I'm leaving the corporate space, and I'm going to start. And he was like, Wow, well, that comes out of left field. And I was like, It doesn't. And it was like, really this moment where he's like, Well, I didn't think he would ever actually do it. And I was like, No. And, you know, people said, Well, what are you doing? And I said I didn't know. And they were like, No, they thought I had some big, crazy, hand-branded secret plan, right? That I just liked but wasn't ready to reveal yet. And I was like, No, I'm serious. I know that it's my time to go. I don't know exactly what I'm doing or where I'm going. But, you know, I've got experience and education and this desire to just jump. So here we go. And people were like, It's very uncharacteristic. 

Yes. But I think you know when you know—you know, it's 

So, you know, touching a little bit on cults and true crime and whatnot. How did you find your passion for this?

Oh, my gosh. So I am like many other babies of the 1980s. I grew up, and the song, the soundtrack from "Unsolved Mysteries," is like the soundtrack of my childhood. My mom and I would sit in the living room in the evenings and watch Unsolved Mysteries. And I just remember it being like the Choose Your Adventure books, but in real life, that's like, Oh, my gosh, people are going missing, and aliens exist. There's Bigfoot in the woods. Like all of this, it's a thing. And honestly, it started there. Then I started reading true crime books probably way too young. And I hope my mom never hears this because I know she'll feel bad about it. Way too young. I was convinced that Ted Bundy was outside of my bedroom window because we were going specifically northwest, like, Oh, no, I was totally Yeah, I didn't sleep for a few weeks, but it was all good. But I was just always intrigued by the mystery, by the unknown. And then, when I got older, it got even more into how people think and act. And at the end of the day, we're all made of the same stuff. We're all people built with the same stuff, you know, blood, muscle, bone; we're all created with the same stuff. But the fact that some people are wired so differently and just what makes them that way helps people be that way, and how it can be okay to do some of the horrible things. And yeah. 

It's super interesting. It's super interesting. I used to commute a few times a month. It was like four hours each way, and not where there's like radio service. And so this was like when I found that people talked about podcasts for a long time. And I was always late to the trend. And I'm like, Oh, maybe I'll check out these podcasts. And so you get to one thing and click here, and maybe this did not. And so I ended up really getting into it this time. And then basically, I was listening to so much that I was like, I have true crime stuff to listen to. And so that's how I got into, like, the cults and the dictatorships. I found that there's Sylar, like the podcast. I don't know if you're familiar with Precast, but they have a whole series of podcasts. And so, you know, their whole dictator series is super interesting, again, because it's this piece of how some people go about doing certain things. I also like American Greed. It is a funny one. I love the voice of American greed. He's so great. But again, these people were listening, and you're like, I'm sorry, you did what? And you let us go for how long? And some of these people seem like they are truly committed, whether it is to a cult or a dictatorship or a business scheme or whatever. And you think like, you have to believe in your life; you have to believe that this is the truth. To be able to carry this out for years, they carry these things out. Yeah, I find it fascinating.

That's where it seems crazy to me when its like, Okay, this wasn't just a fly by night, like, Oh, I'm the Messiah. There you go. Like, it's the long game that it is. And it truly is that whole idea of boiling a frog—you know, you put the frog in the pot of water, and it's going to jump right out. But if you just turn it up slowly and keep adding little bits of crazy, It's yeah. 

Well, it's interesting because, you know, when I was kind of going through this, trying to understand different parts of leadership and seeing how different people describe it, And you know, these people, whether they're leading cults or, you know, like countries with a dictator style or whatever, they truly can lead the people to follow them, even to crazy points where you're like, I'm like, this is craziness. And so it's like, what is it about their leadership style? And so as I was leaving, you know, and doing all of this, because I remember, as I was working through corporate, there was this moment where, when I joined the executive team, the CEO said, You have to sit at the head of the table. And I was like, Why?" Super introverted and super shy. I'm like, but I sit over here. I have always said I'm super habitual. So I'm like, But this is my seat. And he was like, Yes." But now that you're leading the meeting, you have to sit at the table. And I was like, But it makes no difference. I'm like, What?" And so, but then I started, like, trying to, like, do more research as to how people were leading and how, why we were so super, you know, it's like going down a rabbit hole of like, how is it relevant? And how does it tie together and stuff? But, you know, I find the whole study of the human species in terms of actions and creating action so fascinating.

Google Is The Most Used Tool

Like, I always want to know my husband because Google is my most-used tool. I'm like, Hey, Google, how did this start? What did this happen? Where does that word originate? But, like, when did that start? That Okay, sitting at the head of the table symbolizes that, and then the rest of us accept it. Because it's ingrained in us from the first day of going to work that the person sitting at the head of the table is obviously the one in charge. Like, where does that come from? I didn't grow up in a house where we sat, like, ahead of the table; we had a little table in our kitchen that we sat at, and you sat where you sat, and looking back now, my seat was actually, quote-unquote, head of the table. I was at the end, but I was also the one closest to the back door so I could let the dog out when we were eating. So I'm like, I don't know where that develops within our lives that we recognize those things. And then so quickly follow them.

Mm-hmm. Yes, for sure. And I think that as much as we have, there's definitely been growth, progression, and change. Still not as much in certain areas. And you think, you know, but why is that the way it is? And that's always right, like, but why? That's what my mom always says; when you were a kid, that was your question for everything, but why? And I feel like some of these things—you know, it's interesting how a lack of questions sometimes leaves things untouched in this life the way I've always been.

Yes. Well, I remember one of my clients in the past saying that one of her biggest issues with the industry she was in was that every time she would ask a question, she was told, Well, that's just the way it's always been. That's how it's always worked. And she's like, But why? Like, no, you can't tell me why. Sure, it's worked in the past. But, as you know, things change and evolve. And I think it's the people you have to ask why things should change. I mean, that's why people like us leave the corporate world; we're like, Okay, this is no longer fulfilling or fitting what I need it to in my life. I guess the change is like, We have to leave, we have to go, and yeah.

Yeah, it's interesting. I saw this person on Tiktok. I have a Tiktok guilty pleasure. And she's a lawyer. And so I guess she likes to wear pink. I mean, pink is not my jam. But she wears head-to-toe pink suits, like in that movie with the blonde. And when she was like getting picked on and made fun of, this was like a thing where the guys were like razzing her about it. So she built an entire law firm where everyone was like, I mean, it is like 100% Barbie pink everything, but they're like kicking butt. And you're like, I love it. I mean, I would never do it. You could not pay me to go anywhere to paint a head-to-toe suit. But it's like, I love that. She's just, like, decided that this is what she's doing. And I don't care what everybody else says about the fact that it's like it makes her want to win more. Does it prove him wrong?

I freaking love that. Well, and I think that so much of it—I mean, I know with my business myself, and I know you can probably speak to it too. There's always the whole idea of, Okay, well, when you start your own business, you have to narrow your niche down and you have to find a way to talk to this person. Who is your ideal client? I know that for me, I struggled with the narrowing down. I have a business coach, and they were like, Well, no, you have to niche down, and I was like, No, I don't want to say I work with brunette women in their 40s who do this. Like no, I work with creative trendsetting. Whoop, believing badasses! That's my niche. I don't care who you are, what you look like, or where you are; if you fit in with yourself, you know, that's it.

But to me, that niche, you know, I've been hearing and thinking the same things and have talked about it with a few different people over, you know, podcasts and whatnot. Because, you know, I mean, for what I do, specifically whether, you know, like I say, like the businesses I work with, whether your team, like, changes toilets, organizes, does house cleaning, or, you know, is an architect, a therapist, or a photographer, what you do when you get there is different. I'm not helping you with that. I'm not. That's not my jam. That's your jam. My jam is all behind the seat. Yeah. And so whatever you do is what you do. And so I think that you know what that has been, you hear like, you have to niche down, you have to be down. And I do think your messaging needs to speak to someone, but I think that we often group that into like, Oh, it's like this industry or this age, but really, for me, it's more about when someone is reading your website or they're reading your social media posts. They're like, Yes, this person understands me. And it's just framing it differently. It's reaching out to a different group of people; they might share the same industry, but they might not. But they have something; there's some part of them that is like a common ground that, when they are experiencing you and your brand, is like, Yes, this person understands. 

Well, I'm doing it in a way that is authentic to you and is going to resonate with those people you want to connect with. I mean, if it's wearing the Barbie pink suit and heels and having an entire law firm that does that, more power to you. Like you said, that's not my jam. My wardrobe is mainly black because then it doesn't show up the coffee that I spill on myself every day. We're good. But I mean, you know, how you present yourself, how you talk, and what you're putting out there? I don't feel like it has to fit into a box anymore, as it did for so long. Now, if you're being authentically you, people will recognize that, and yeah.

Yeah, I agree. So if you have one tangible tip for people to implement into their businesses, you can implement it this week and catch that win. What would that be?

Writing its words is my jam when it comes to communication; it's that kind of communication. And one tip for people is to stop second-guessing themselves. I know that's easier said than done, of course, but to really lean into that authenticity and know that what you're writing is what you're saying, your message, if it rings true to you, then it's not wrong. Put it out there. You know, I'm not saying give medical advice, but put it out there and be true to who you are. Because then you're going to connect with people in the right way. And it just feels so much better. It's such a relief, and it's such an empowering feeling to not be trying to fit into someone else's box.

Yeah, yes. 100% agree. Well, it's been fantastic having you, Meg, so where can people connect with you? If they're like that, I need to work with Meg. I want to write a book, or I want to touch base with you. Learn some more. Where can they connect with you?

I love it. All of the socials If you look up Meg's rights, my website is just www.megswrites.com.

Awesome. Awesome. And I'll be sure to link those below. Well, thank you so much for being here. It's been a pleasure.

Of course. Thank you so much. It's been fun.

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